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Poster: hippie64 Date: Aug 13, 2009 6:33pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Bobby fans are people too

I could see the Bobby bashing if he was just some fillin Jerry grabbed to round out a kick ass rock band but lets face he was no Pete Best. I believe he complimented Jerry in every fashion even w/ the gonad revealing shorts. My first show the red rooster he pulled off damn near ripped my head off.Also nothing sets my Bobby mood better than a well done Queen Jane Approx. But as most of you well know Bobby developed some pretty competent guitar skills. so i don't know whats w/ the bashing am i the vitim or the crime aside Question ; Whats the first live Throwing Stones ? as well as first Touch of Gray ( Grey? )

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Poster: sntb Date: Aug 14, 2009 4:46am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bobby fans are people too (alternate history)

Maybe this belongs in its own subject, but here you go anyway.

Had this thought while gritting my teeth listening to Weir vandalize the end of a "If I Had the World to Give" with his slide guitar (and imagining a big Monty Python foot stomping on him):

I would never have thought to have kicked him out in '68, like Jerry and Phil wanted to do. He was just entering his prime. He had a great tone, added a lot, could still sing and harmonize etc...
BUT
I would have thought about kicking him out in '78, (along with Keith and Donna) Let him become the Lowell George meets Andy Gibb character that he was at that point. That actually would've ended the band, I'm sure. Crikey, what would've happened then? JGB full time, Phil was in a dark period at that point but hopefully would've still pulled out. The drummers???
BUT
Then there would have been the '88 reunion, when they and every other classic rocker had pony tails and rehab war stories (Ringo, Townshend, Henley..)

Back to reality...
I really wish Weir just said "guess what? I'm no Bonnie Raitt, so I'm gonna do like Syd Barrett (and later Thurston Moore) and unabashedly use the slide as purely an instrument of tripped out noise and beauty and thus no one will expect me to play the right notes."

But no..

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Poster: hippie64 Date: Aug 14, 2009 7:30am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bobby fans are people too (alternate history)

Ya know I can Dig it.I can some what recall through my reading that that scenario almost took place. I really dont know how Jerry put up W/ Donnas screeching maybe a show or three, but for a friggin decade? Wow that must have been some great dope. here I go burning on people i dnt even know again What the hell ? So I digress. Anyways Thanx for your alt take on my query and suggest my own, Would Merl have been a better fit than Brent? ( I love the blue eyed soul sound ala Winwood that Brent added)If only Jerry would have taken a sabatical from the band in 90 after Mydland's death my belief is he would have given us another 5 yrs (maybe) of his joyous music. But , you know " If if was a fifth we all would be drunk.

Thanx agian to the LMA community for keeping the spirit alive Long Live The Grateful Dead ! and Peace to all who post here

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Poster: Chiklod Date: Aug 13, 2009 7:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bobby fans are people too

Amen on your Bobby thoughts hippie. There was many a night where I would have left depressed had Bobby not stepped up with an energetic "Sugar Magnolia" or "Lovelight". The people I dragged to see the show at Soldier Field in 1994 still consider the "One More Saturday Night" to be their favorite concert moment, they mention it every time I see them.
According to Deadbase:
1st Touch: 9-15-82 Cap Centre Landover, MD Encore
1st Throwing Stones:
9-17-82 Cumberland County Civiv Center Portland, ME 1st set

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Poster: hippie64 Date: Aug 13, 2009 8:04pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bobby fans are people too

Thanx Man Im gonna dig checking that out

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Poster: dorkus Date: Aug 18, 2009 11:19am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bobby fans are people too

Bob blows!!!! Fucking asshole!

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Poster: lobster12 Date: Aug 14, 2009 8:28am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bobby fans are people too

I love the JGB as much as the next guy. I love their version of Deal as well. But for years I always thought something was missing. And that something is Weir. A well played Deal frmm the Dead trumps a well played Deal with JGB mainly because of Weir.

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Poster: Leonard Liotta Instructor English Date: Aug 14, 2009 7:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bobby fans are people too

Guys

I am very respectful of Weir's contributions to the plethora of original material brought to, and used, in 1st set, and 2nd sets; however, IMO the bashing is four-fold.
Having said that, you first need to listen carefully to Weir's guitar work in 1972, especially Europe. The harmonic structure of unusal choral and harmonic progressions (not to metion his voice leading) and use of "flat and augmented 5ths, 7ths, and 9th's, laid the groundwork for Jerry to be free enough to expand and vocalize his solos. Listen to "Truckin" on Europe '72 or "1969's triad of "Dark Star>>St Stephen>>The Eleven."

First, Heads are "put off" by his rock star personae. There is some truth in this, the band ideology was always diametrically opposed to such behavior.

Second, his way of , in the words of T.S. Eliot, disturbing "the universe" of multiple, improvizations; breaking and taking away from the moments of greatness starting to form around the band and engaging with the audience. For example, in the Dead's most perfect concert (it is said, 8/72 Ventura OR) Weir "disturbs" the universe created by the band in in the middle of "Dark Star" for a cowboy song, or, cuting off Jerry great solos in many "Jack Straws" and coming in with a verse, as Jerry keeps soloing--disconnecting and detaching the tune from "Being" itself and "fixing" its structure in a frame holding a beautiful portrait. This is not an anomolous behavior by Bob, but a consistant dislocaton of the trajectory of the improviation many knowledgable DH's note.

Thirdly, his "slide guitar" playing is no better than mine and I have never tried to do so. Slide guitar takes years and years to build the superior playing you here by Duane Allman,Steve Kimock, and even Jerry himself (note sublime slide in "Row Jimmy"). To play slide when on stage with Warren Haynes shows, at best, musical hubris. Even audience members with no tonal relation in their auditory comsciousness could "hear" the inappropriate and poor "Playin" Weir does in tunes like the 3rd slot, 1st set blues---"Minglewood, "Rooster" and "Walkin Blues." I understand why Jerry did not say anything to Weir (the Dead cose of letting expression take it's place in the creation and de-creation of music, but Bob takes de-creation TOO LITERALLY). To support my claim--always listen to the Jerry solo AFTER the Weir slide solo (de-creation)and how Jerry brings the tune to life (creation) to its conclusion.

Four, Weir in 1993 changed his guitar sound so much that he
no longer complements Jerry (later Warren and Jimmy Herring), causing an agonizingand irritating "noise," a friction in the middle of harmonic compliementariness.
The sound is most notably audible when the Dead were tuning up. The ugly noise we experience is Weir's (in his own words on Letterman)"rude" sounding guitar. You are able to heaqr it clearly in the 1994, 1995 shows when Jerry did/could not solo.

I am "greatful" for Weir and his ability, his early guitar work and later to write Dead statements (strong songs) played on the last tour (spring 2009)used as centerpieces for many of the shows. He, like the rest of us, are on a journey of discovery, Weirs has, is, will be (hopefully)continuing.

Len Liotta
Professor English
1st show 5/2/77 Palladium NYC
last show 4/95 Tampa, FLA.

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Aug 14, 2009 7:57pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bobby fans are people too

Nice post! I enjoyed reading your thoughtful analysis.
Judging by your quaint use of English, no way you can be an English professor, but I look forward to seeing more posts from you!

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Poster: hippie64 Date: Aug 14, 2009 11:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bobby fans are people too

WOW ! Your response was something akin to pulling up to a McDonalds drive thru ordering the value priced double cheese and being suprised and pleased to be served a thick filet w/ a side of jumbo shrimp. I suspected there were fine nuances involved w/ my question and to the trained ear Bobby left a lot to be desired. But... To the novice they were the only game in town. Thank you for your astute observations. I can only imagine your students learn plenty from a teacher w/ the life experience ( i.e. Deadhead )you share selflessly. Thanks agian I can still say w/o hesitation I still need a daily dose of Bob and that even includes the occasional "Bob Star" peace to all

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Poster: barongsong Date: Aug 14, 2009 10:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bobby fans are people too

I very much agree with your assessment of Bobby although the numerous typos etc in your post leave me wondering of your professorial credentials.
But it's irrelevant so lets forget about that and get to the point that in my view Bobby was in the early to mid 70's a great rhythm guitarist and getting there before that. But that's almost pointless too because in my view on this time period is that through all the hard work, commitment and drive, just about everyone in the band is really in top form and and are able to make the ultimate GD sound. However somewhere in the mid 70's something happens and perfection starts to get to be a bit boring as is expected in a band that is going Further, and I for one am glad for this. By this I mean that before this transitional period the band seemed to have some kind of vision of what they wanted to sound like and after seeming to reach it, it was much more difficult to come to an agreement as to which direction to go next. Yet they did... sort of... and this is all projection on my part by the way, but anyway after reaching such heights as they did it's my belief that there were as many ideas as to where to go next as there were band members, and probably more knowing their reputation for openness. In other words the band after this point seems to be more convoluted and not as focused on the Grateful Dead as they were on there own projects. I must also say that I think this was the right thing to do at this time in order to keep the creative juices going although this is also in my opinion why things with the GD became less and less consistent. However I do think when they all did connect later on it was monumental and possibly even better than before.
Anyway to get to the original thought and get back to what Bobby has to do with all this. It's my opinion that Bobby was the one that got the furthest away from the GD musical theme and thus was often the guy that for better or worse rocked the boat more, and was often deserving but sometimes not for some of the less memorable moments, but for sure did stuff that was so unique that there is no doubt for me that without him their would not have been a Grateful Dead as we know and love it.

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Poster: angular Date: Aug 13, 2009 7:37pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bobby fans are people too

When Bob posted the quote "see ya'" after pulling the soundboards, I was done with him.

When he dies I will post a message.....

"SEE YA"!"

Burn in hell rat b*stard.

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Poster: hippie64 Date: Aug 13, 2009 8:01pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bobby fans are people too

If thats the case why cant i get Jerry Band shows on the LMA?

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Poster: user unknown Date: Aug 13, 2009 8:11pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bobby fans are people too

"If thats the case why cant i get Jerry Band shows on the LMA?"

3 word answer....

Deborah Koons Garcia

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Poster: Styrofoam Cueball Date: Aug 13, 2009 9:11pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bobby fans are people too

and there's here:

http://www.jerryradio.com

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Aug 13, 2009 9:40pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: A deep dark sigh for angular....

Phil Lesh
***1/5/06***
I had two conversations with Cameron Sears, our CEO at GDP, regarding Archive, starting when our material first showed up there. I told Cameron that I was fine having the audience tapes up there, but that he should talk to everyone, including Bob Hunter and John Barlow, regarding the soundboards. A year later when I had not heard anything about the boards, I mentioned to Cameron that I felt by not doing anything we were making a decision about the boards and that I was fine with that. Again I urged him to talk to everyone. I was caught by complete surprise when, right before Thanksgiving, the recordings were pulled. I feel that Bobby was not updated properly and unfairly took most of the heat. A lot of our business disagreements are the result of poor communication from advisors. Bobby is my brother and I love him unconditionally; he is a very generous man, and was unfairly judged regarding the Archive issue. -Philzone
***11/30/05***
“I was not part of this decision making process and was not notified that the shows were to be pulled. I do feel that the music is the Grateful Dead's legacy and I hope that one way or another all of it is available for those who want it. I have enjoyed using Archive.org and found it invaluable during the writing of my book…Your concerns have been heard and I am sure are being respectfully addressed.” -PhilLesh.net

Bob Weir
***12/2/05***
""We had to cover our asses. What they’re doing is illegal, unless there are arrangements made… particularly in the case of covers — other people’s material.If we’re perceived to be distributing their songs without their agreement, they have every right, and really and every obligation, to sue us…We had to take it down. We had no choice. It’s archive.com’s [sic] job to make arrangements with the other people whose material… we’re playing, and then everything’s good….Probably a lot of it is stuff that we intend to release in the future anyway.We need revenue. Our music division needs revenue so we can digitize all of that stuff.The ‘information wants to be free, man’ — those folks… this is not information, this is music. It’s kind of value-added information. Some people prefer to call it art….We had to go ahead and do the right thing, and it upset some folks. I’m really sorry about that. So they started up a petition, a boycott, and all that kind of stuff. I really hope they can stick to their guns, and boycott us, and… seeya."" -KBCO Boulder

Mickey Hart
***12/02/05***
"The last several days have been a whirlwind of activity and commentary regarding the Grateful Dead and archive.org. I am posting this message due to the fact that despite news stories to the contrary, I have been one of the earliest backers of the taping and sharing of Grateful Dead music. I fully support the position taken by Phil in his message and always have. Being a field recordist myself, I stand united with the taper community and always will notwithstanding anything in the media to the contrary. Efforts have been made by Grateful Dead Productions and archive.org to rectify the situation and I hope our loyal fans, friends and family will continue to enjoy and participate in Grateful Dead music." -MickeyHart.net

Robert Hunter
***12/1/05***
“The more I learn the more there is to know about this remarkable public relations meltdown. All you saw was the mushroom cloud. My best hope is that by the time its reported in this Sunday’s NY Times’ entertainment section it will be ancient history.” -DeadNetCentral

John Perry Barlow
***11/29/05***
“You have no idea how sad I am about this. I fought it hammer and tong, but the drummers had inoperable bricks in their head about it.
What's worse is that they now want to remove all Dead music from the Web. They might as easily put a teaspoon of food coloring in a swimming pool and then tell the pool owner to get it back to them.
It's like finding out that your brother is a child molester. And then, worse, having everyone then assume that you're a child molester too. I've been called a hypocrite in three languages already.
How magnificently counter-productive of them. It's as if the goose who laid the golden egg had decided to commit suicide so that he could get more golden eggs.
This is just the beginning of the backlash, I promise you.
This is worse than the RIAA suing their customers.” -BoingBoing

Dennis McNalley
****11/30/05***
“it was the band's conclusion, after a long discussion with [the Archive], to request that they change their policies…The idea of a massive one-stop Web site that does not build community is not what we had in mind. Our conclusion has been that it doesn't represent Grateful Dead values.” -New York Times
***11/30/05***
"The band has not fully made up its mind…Things have already changed, and God only knows if they'll change some more." -New York Times
***11/30/05***
the removal on November 22 of all downloadable Dead recordings from archive.org was the result of “a great communication snafu...It is my understanding that by the end of the day, the audience tapes will be restored to archive.org” -Relix
***12/01/05***
"At this point, all I've been asked to communicate is, 'Go look at the archive.org Web site.'" -Rolling Stone
***12/02/05***
"There was a consensus to address this issue and it got addressed…We are confronting an entirely new set of circumstances with moving new music around, and we are struggling with it like a lot of others." -Reuters

David Gans
***11/23/05***
“I have sympathies on both sides of this issue…I think it is worthwhile to ask ourselves if there isn’t some greed on the other side of the equation.” Playback

Stanley Owsley
***12/3/05***
Best thing they have done in years, in my opinion. I was never in favour of allowing the bootlegging of shows by audience members. The original idea for audience taping- about which I was not consulted - was to allow a certain group of audience members to record at shows with microphones. NO real soundboard tapes should have ever been let out, but then, only the ones that Healy gave connections out for, and of course those that Latvala, an unrepentant sneak-thief, gave away are real, many are fakes. I have NEVER allowed anyone to copy my sonic journal tapes, which were made and kept as a personal diary of my work. The music belongs to the musicians who wrote and perfomed it. It is not public property and the continued survival of all of us who particpated in bringing it to the world should be respected by all who love it. Buy the albums we make from our archives and know that you are helping pay our rent and keep food on the table. I have nothing but contempt for those who claim they were ‘robbed’ by the band’s decision on this." -Ratdog.org

GET THE FUCK OVER IT - THE MUSIC IS OUT THERE.

... but i still want my lavendar lacoste back....

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Poster: angular Date: Aug 15, 2009 8:56am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A deep dark sigh for angular....

What about ratdog and the SBD's they have available? Is he paying the Garica estate for all the Hunter/Garcia tunes he performs? Not to metion the other covers.

rat b*stard move.

you fucking get over it.

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Aug 13, 2009 10:54pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A deep dark sigh for angular....

Great selection of quotes, thanks! Very illuminating.

Owsley's attitude is revealing in showing why the band hassled tapers for so many years.... "Latvala, the unrepentant sneak-thief!"

I liked McNally's comment:
"The idea of a massive one-stop Web site that does not build community is not what we had in mind...it doesn't represent Grateful Dead values.”

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Poster: spacedface Date: Aug 14, 2009 12:44am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A deep dark sigh for angular....

There was nothing stopping the Dead from doing something like the archive did, or making a club like mentioned in the 80s. There's certainly enough talented Deadheads, even just in the Bay Area to have done it cleanly.


Back to Bobby, "Bobby developed some pretty competent guitar skills"

That's not the question, even if Bonnie Raitt provided some comparison when she played with the Dead. Everything's not quite what it seems, even the cash to feed who's jones.

This post was modified by spacedface on 2009-08-14 07:44:41

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Poster: spacedface Date: Aug 14, 2009 12:37am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A deep dark sigh for angular....

Listening too Lil Red Rooster and other Brent rants was sometimes odd:
http://www.archive.org/details/gd1990-03-30.sbd.cutler-mix.miller.89173.sbeok.flac16

I'm not just mad he wouldn't talk to me at the symphony. Weir did at least provide a healthier model than the others up front, as well as a bit more energetic tunes.

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Poster: skies Date: Aug 14, 2009 2:08am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A deep dark sigh for angular....

THE most sexy Grateful Dead sounds ever heard :little red rooster !!!

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Poster: angular Date: Aug 14, 2009 3:28am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A deep dark sigh for angular....

I wish I could find the audio to put it in it's propper context, but here's a blast from the past.

http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=50338

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Poster: angular Date: Aug 15, 2009 8:46am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A deep dark sigh for angular....

Wow! Dark Star Orchestra has SBD's available for download. Don't you think they would be worried about the Dead suing for copyright infringement?

Bobby's obama move verified.

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Poster: angular Date: Aug 15, 2009 6:13am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A deep dark sigh for angular....

"A deep dak sigh for me" Thank you, that makes me feel better. I think I can go to sleep tonight instead of tossing and turning woorying about what you think.

Thank you for posting the interviews. It only confirms my point. You should check out the audio of Bob--that seals it for me. I have been unable to track it (the sites don't come up). The vocal inflection and the mymicry of the fans was uncalled for. About the copyright material they could get in trouble for--check out how many artist on the archive or elsewhere have songs performed by other artists on the web. You don't see them pulling SB's from downloadable form. It was a greedy money/power grab.

Is he an accomplished guitarist. HELL YES! I will continue to enjoy his body of work with the GD. Past 1995, no, due to the attitude he gave. What's up with the beard and stash anyway. Trying to be a Jerry Jr? He just looks like a walrus.